Tuesday, 1 July, 2014
Somebody misled Modi to say nation needs 'bitter medicine', says Subramanian Swamy (India TV Exclusive)
New Delhi: For the first time since the Modi government took over the reins of power, a senior BJP leader has come out in the open to express his divergent view on Narendra Modi’s ‘bitter medicine’ theory. And the person is none other than the indomitable Subramanian Swamy.
In an exclusive interview to indiatvnews.com, Subramanian Swamy disagreed with Modi’s view that the nation needs to be administered ‘bitter medicine’.
Swamy alleged that somebody has misled Modi on this issue because he is not an economist and he has to rely on some people who might have misled him.
Swamy also differed with the government on railway passenger fare and freight hike. He said that Railways needs resources but it should not be done by raising passenger fares as there are other means available for the same.
Elated over a Delhi court issuing summons to Sonia and Rahul Gandhi in National Herald case, Subramanian Swamy rubbished Congress party’s claims that its intention was to help National Herald and its 700 odd employees as the party was emotionally attached to the newspaper for historical reasons.
When asked about his perceived strong views against Sonia Gandhi, Swamy said that he does not hate her but he has only contempt for her.
On Gopal Subramanian case, Swamy made it clear that his reason for opposing Gopal was different from what has been leaked (sic) to the newspapers.
According to Swamy, he opposed Gopal Subramanian’s appointment as Supreme Court judge, because of the affidavit that he filed as the Solicitor-General and defended it till Swamy forced him to withdraw it and that affidavit stated that Ram was a mythical character and that Ram-Sethu was not a man-made bridge but a natural formation.
Swamy also pointed out that both Dr Manmoahn Singh and Gopal Subramanian had personal character but both of them lacked what he called “national character”.
Swamy also said that India should send at least 200,000 troops to Afghanistan. He also advised India to get ready for war with the Islamic caliphate that will be set up very soon which will include Pakistan and Afghanistan.
On the possible solution of Kashmir issue, Swamy clearly said that there is no peaceful or democratic solution possible and there can only be a military solution to this dispute.
Here goes the full text of the interview:
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Q: Dr. Swamy, let’s start with National Herald case. Finally, you have succeeded in getting summons issued against Sonia and Rahul Gandhi but the Congress party says that this case is purely politically motivated and an act of revengeful witch-hunt. They say it was their duty to help National Herald and its 700 odd employees. How would you react to that?
Swamy: First of all, the SC has a number of times said that when a complaint is made, the motive of the complainant can’t be gone into. Just the facts which are presented before the court must be gone into. Now it’s an insult of the court to say that I wanted to take revenge against Sonia Gandhi and therefore, I went to court and got the summons issued. Is it possible? It’s a contempt of court. It shows the low regard the Congress has for the court system in our country. This is a case which I had started when UPA was in power, one and a half years agao. During that period, it never occurred to them that they should do something. They never turned in court when I argued the whole matter on prime facie evidence. Now they have been found prime facie guilty of fraud, cheating and conspiracy and they have to answer that.
Q: Abhishek Manu Singhvi says he will legally demolish your case.
Swamy: (Laughs…) He is talking like all these children in schools. Ask him to come before India TV and have a debate with me. I’ll finish him.
Q: Just for the benefit of our audience, What are the main points of this National Herald case?
Swamy: The main point is this. You start from the last step. There was a company set up called “Young Indian Pvt Ltd Company”. They make a big thing that it’s a non-profit, section 25 company. So what? Who is the owner of the company. The owner of the company is the mother-son duo who own 76 percent stake. Each of them own 38 percent each. Tomorrow if the company is wound up, the assets of the company will be distributed in that proportion. Second, all the expenses of travel etc are done from company’s fund. Forget Rahul Gandhi’s idiotic answer that it’s a non-profit company. Tomorrow I can’t say that I have formed a non-profit company and am going to take over Humayun’s tomb which is nearby. How can you take it over?
So as I said, let’s go with the last step. A company which was set up only with Rs. 5 lakh and no assets whatsoever has come to acquire between 2000-5000 crore worth of property. In fact, their office was at 10, Janpath which is itself illegal. They have properties in Delhi at Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg, in Mumbai where they have built a multi-story luxury apartment, in Bhopal where they have built a mall, in Indore where they have made a huge mall-cum-residential complex and then in Lucknow, Patna and Chandigarh. Now how can a Rs. 5 Lakh company come to own 2000 crore worth of property?
Q: Do you find any merit in their argument that they extended loan because they find emotionally attached to National Herald?
Swamy: Alright, this argument was given when Congress gave Rs 90 crores to National Herald to wipe out the debt. But what does the press statement say? It says – in order for the National Herald to resume publication of National Herald. But happened in the end? That company has been digested by “Young Indian” which has in its memorandum of association clearly says publishing is not a part. One of our friends sent an email in this regard to Rahul Gandhi and he confirmed – No Publishing. So they have killed National Herald. This is a very strange way of showing love for National Herald by killing it.
Q: You have also pointed out that the business transaction that the Congress has entered into is illegal.
Swamy: That is a separate issue. That’s Income-tax issue. That is not in the court.
Q: If it’s illegal then why your own govt is not taking any action?
Swamy: After I wrote that letter, I’m told they are now taking action.
Q: Dr Swamy, people say that your hatred for Nehru-Gandhi family is well known. It goes back to the time when you had questioned Sonia Gandhi’s job as an insurance agent and Indira Gandhi was forced to intervene…
Swamy: And agree with me. I had not made any false charge.
Q: Yes. But what is the reason behind this hatred for Sonia Gandhi. Can you explain the background to your anti-Sonia Gandhi stand?
Swamy: You started by saying Nehru family. Actually, Rajiv Gandhi and I were such good friends that we had an alliance between Janata Party and Congress. I made Chandrashekhar Prime Minister. I defended Rajiv Gandhi on issues like Sri Lanka, IPKF and Maldives. I was almost like a brother to him. We used to sit together in parliament. So, it’s wrong to say that I have hatred for the family.
Q: I said the perception is there.
Swamy: Perception? It’s easy in our country. They don’t want you to go into the merits of the argument. They would just say that he has enmity with her.
As far as Sonia Gandhi is concerned, I have no hatred. I have contempt for her.
Q: But there was a time when you were also on good terms with Sonia Gandhi. You had that famous tea party with Sonia and Jayalalithaa that brought down the Vajpayee govt.
Swamy: Yes. We did business together to bring down the BJP led NDA government.
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Q: So where does the relationship stand today?
Swamy: I have serious doubts about her involvement in Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination. I’m shocked that she wrote a letter to the President saying that the four people, whom the SC ordered to be hanged, should not be hanged. I’m shocked by the fact that she gave scholarship through IGNOU to Nalini. I’m shocked by the fact that she enabled her daughter, born after they were arrested, to go to London to study medicine and resettle her in Australia. I’m shocked that she sent Priyanka to speak to her. When I found that she had told Sheila Dikshit to give 1 plot of land near the airport for the LTTE to make a four-storey building, I got it demolished thanks to Mr. V K Kapoor who used to be L-G those days who took the courageous step by demolishing it.
Q: You are making very serious charges.
Swamy: So what do you want? You want me to make non-serious charges?
Q: No. But do you have any substantive proof?
Swamy: Oh really? Are you the Supreme Court? I produced proof on national Herald. You wait till I get a court order on other issues. You go by my record that I have never been wrong.
Q: How do you rate Rahul Gandhi’s leadership?
Swamy: Rahul Gandhi and leadership? They are contradictory terms.
Q: Still he led Congress in general elections?
Swamy: He was nominated. He is not a leader of the country. People have not accepted him. He is a ‘Buddhu’.
Q: There is a section in the Congress that is clamouring for Priyanka Gandhi. Do you believe Priyanka can change the fortunes of Congress party?
Swamy: Their family is over. There is no hope for Congress party with the family. The Congress will have to find somebody who can stand on his own party.
And who is Priyanka Gandhi, if I make ask you? You mean the wife of Vadra? Then call her Priyanka Vadra. It’s not there either in her certificate or passport.
Q: Narendra Modi, while campaigning in 2014 elections, made serious allegations against Robert Vadra. Now he is in power but we have not heard anything on that. Were those allegations mere part poll rhetoric?
Swamy: You ask Mr Narendra Modi. Don’t ask me. I didn’t make those charges. Whenever I make a charge, I go and file a court case. I am not a shoot and scoot man.
Now, Mr. Modi must have made some arrangements for that. I don’t know what those arrangements are.
Q: Can you explain in detail?
Swamy: I can’t say. He might have asked CBI that please look into it and prepare the files. I don’t know.
Q: There were charges against Robert Vadra in Rajasthan as well but Vasundhara govt has also not done anything.
Swamy: Now Vasundhara Raje govt has registered a case against Karti Chidambaram and Robert Vadra.
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Q: Coming to the Gopal Subramanian case, I have two questions. One, do you believe that Gopal Subramanian is not suitable to be a judge of Supreme Court? Second, do you believe that the stand that the government has taken is in the interest of the judicial system in the country?
Swamy: If you ask me a question, should Mr. Gopal Subramanian be a judge of the Supreme Court, my answer is NO. Is my reason the same as the reason given in the leaks to the newspapers? The answer is NO. I have a different reason.
My reason is that he filed an affidavit as the Solicitor-General and defended it till I forced him to withdraw it and that was that Ram was a mythical character and that Ram-Setu was not a man-made bridge but a natural formation. On that ground itself I had told him at that stage, you are a morally unfit person.
Q: But his point is that because of the role he played in Sohrabuddin case that also involved Amit Shah, he is being targeted by the new govt.
Swamy: So does it mean that other candidates played sycophantic roles? Are they chamchas of the government?
I opposed his appointment on the ground that he filed an affidavit that hurt the sentiments of 80 percent of India i.e. Hindus. There were widespread protests and they were forced to withdraw it. And then he was removed from that case in Supreme Court. I don’t know anything about other reasons forwarded like 2G, Nira Radia etc.
Is he a competent person? YES. He is a very, very competent person. Is he a good man? YES. He is a good man. But he has a character flaw. I make a distinction between personal and national character. We need both.
Both Manmohan Singh and Gopal Subramanian had personal character but both of them lacked national character.
Q: Coming to the performance of Modi govt, Modi had promised a lot in his election campaign but there is a section of people which believes that the kind of decisions this govt has taken in the very first first month is contrary to the promises he had made. For example, the steep hike in Railway fares. Do you believe it was avoidable and do you forsee its repercussions in upcoming assembly elections?
Swamy: As far as Railways is concerned, I have made it clear to him and I have mentioned this in my tweets as well that yes, Railway requires lots of funds as it has been brought to a breaking point but there are other ways of collecting those funds, not by raising passenger fares.
Q: So you disagree with the government on this?
Swamy: I disagree with the govt in raising resources for the Railways through raising fares but I am in favour of govt finding other ways of raising resources for Railways.
Q: Have you communicated this to Mr. Modi? And has he given any positive response?
Swamy: Yes I have communicated this to him. He and I meet often. But I’ll not tell you what he told me.
Q: Do you think this decision will have any negative impact on upcoming elections in Maharashtra, Haryana, Jharkhand and possibly Delhi?
Swamy: No. We’ll win all of them. People are fed up of corruption. And after this National Herald case, people have got faith that corruption will be fought.
Q: Dr Swamy, let’s come to the concept of ‘Hindu Rashtra’. Can you explain what do you mean by ‘Hindu Rashtra’ and how will it be different from today’s Secular India?
Swamy: Let me start with this. This election was an amalgam of three issues.
One was Narendra Modi’s governance record. People were convinced that this man can rule the country. And it was a big plus for us because on the other side was the ‘buddhu’. There was no match.
Second was the fight against corruption which I led. People got convinced that yes these people can remove corruption. There was not a single corruption charge either against me or Modi. So the people were convinced and there was support for BJP as party of honest people.
Third, the cadre of the BJP which had gone to sleep after 2004, after 6 years of secularism of NDA, they suddenly got fired up that Modi means Hindutva with RSS Chief Mohan Bhagwat putting the entire weight behind him. So Hindutva was the third factor. And all three factors are important. You can’t just do governance and expect people to support you. There is large number of Hindus who believe that they have got a raw deal. And it also includes particularly educated young people.
Now coming back to your question of ‘Hindu Rashtra’, it does not mean that only a Hindu can be a prime Ministry. ‘Hindu Rashtra’ does not mean only Hindus can occupy public office. That is a ‘Muslim Rashtra’, ‘Christian Rashtra’ but never a ‘Hindu Rashtra’.
All through history, even Shiva ji, who spoke about Hindu Rashtra, had a Muslim as commander-in-Chief. In 1857, we made Bahadur Shah Zafar as emperor who appointed a Hindu his Prime Minister. If your secularism is that the church and the state are to be separate, and that is the original definition, then we have already done that throughout the history.
Second, the Hindu concept of secularism is ‘Sarva Dharma Sam-bhava’ and it means that all religions lead to God. So we show respect to all religions. The Jews came, we looked after them. The Parsis came, we looked after them. The Arab Muslims came and we looked after them in Kerala. But will the Muslims say that all religions lead to God? No, they’ll never say that. They’ll say if you don’t believe in Islam, you are Kaafirs. And you are fit for either conversion or killing. Christians will say that you are pagans if not Christians and that devil has got your souls. You are to be saved and in extreme form like crusade they will kill also. So the only religion in the world that has practiced Sarva Dharma Sam-bhava is Hinduism.
Q: My question is how would this Hindu Rashtra be different from the secular India that we have today?
Swamy: We’ll teach Sanskrit. We’ll teach them the correct history of India. We’ll say that all Hindus are one. That varna is not birth based. Its discipline and duty based.
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Q: You had written an article in DNA for which Harvard had dropped your courses. In that article you wrote that those Muslims who don’t accept Hindu ancestry should be disenfranchised. Do you still stand by that?
Swamy: First of all, my courses had nothing to do with that. The courses related to Economics.
Yes, I stand by that statement because it’s drawn out of the partition of India. India was one country, there was no country called Pakistan. So the British had to create a legal entity called Pakistan. So they had introduced a bill in parliament that was called “Indian independence Act”. It was passed in June 1947 after a big debate.
In the debate, they said that there are Muslims who say that we have no connection with Hindus except for the fact that we ruled over them and we don’t want to live with them. The British said that we can’t abandon them and it’s our job to protect them. So we’ll partition India into two countries – India and Pakistan.
For Muslims who said that they have no connections with India and that they didn’t want to live with Hindus, partition was created. Therefore, Muslims who wanted to live separately went to Pakistan. But those Muslims who stayed on were people who accepted that they are willing to live with Hindus and they had connections with Hindus. And what is that connection? That is the ‘Scientific study on DNA’, published in the University of Cambridge, Journal of Genetics. There were studies in Houston, Mysore University as well. All these DNA studies show that the Hindu DNA and Muslim DNA is the same. So what does it mean and that’s what I had said. And if you don’t want to identify with Hindus, Pakistan is there for you.
Q: You are also supposed to be an authority on foreign relations, how do you look at what is happening in middle-east especially the way ISIS is marching ahead with vengeance? According to some media reports, the ISIS has the vision of an Islamic state that stretches up to Gujarat in India. How serious is that from Indian perspective.
Swamy: Serious enough for us to prepare for war. We’ll have a war.
Q: War with whom?
Swamy: War with the Islamic caliphate that will be set up very soon which will include Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Q: What should the Government of India do?
Swamy: Start preparing. Send troops to Afghanistan. Make friends with Iran because they are Shiites and those militants are all Sunnis.
Q: You want India to send troops to both Afghanistan and Iraq?
Swamy: Yes, to Iraq to save our people and I’m happy that India has send its warship there. India should send at least 200,000 troops to Afghanistan.
Q: There is a fear that once these Americans leave, these Talibans will get upper hand and they will turn their focus towards Kashmir.
Swamy: There is no fear, it’s a certainty. Americans will hand over Afghanistan to Taliban and go. And their appetite is Jehad and Kashmir is the obvious place. So we should be ready to go to war. You don’t start the war. They’ll start it and you finish it.
Q: A related question is, what, according to you, would be the solution for Kashmir dispute because it’s lingering for quite a long time.
Swamy: Military solution as there is no peaceful, democratic solution. We have to disown Jawaharlal Nehru and say that he took this matter to UN without the sanction of the cabinet and therefore, it’s an illegal application. Withdraw the application from the UN and put Pakistan on notice and clear out.
Q: Do you think India has the military might to defeat Pakistan?
Swamy: We can acquire the military might. We have the man power for that .
Q: Till the time we acquire that, what should we do?
Swamy: How much time do you want? Have you studied the problem? I have studied it. We need two years only.
Actually, we can defeat Pakistan even today. But we have to neutralize China.
Q: But Pakistan is a nuclear weapons state.
Swamy: So what? Let them use nuclear weapons. We’ll use it on them. There will be no Pakistan left. May be 100 million will die, no problem.
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Q: That was the argument that George Fernandes had forwarded and he was criticized a lot.
Swamy: I care a damn for criticism. I’m telling you what I feel. You accept it or don’t accept it.
Q: So you believe India should go all out…
Swamy: No, you don’t start it. They’ll start it. You just finish it. Once they start it, go whole-hog. If you are afraid they are going to use nuclear bomb, you use it first.
Q: How do you rate the foreign policy of Modi government? He invited Nawaz Sharif for his swearing-in ceremony.
Swamy: I would still invite him because in Pakistan there are four governments. Nawaz Sharif’s is a civilian government. The civilians are dying for India’s help because they know they will have to go to burqas and beards once these Talibans take over with no permission for night clubs, partying, cinemas etc. They know it and that’s why are privately telling us – please shake hands with us. So civil society is differentThere are three other governments – ISI, military and mullahs.
Q: So you are in favour of engagement with the civilian government.
Swamy: Yes, but don’t take them seriously because they can’t deliver.
Q: You had played an important role in normalizing relationship with China especially your initiative on Kailas Mansarovar yatra, how do you look at Sino-Indian relationship. China is not willing to release its claim over Arunachal Pradesh.
Swamy: One day, China should announce that they recognize McMahon line.
Q: So what is happening on that front?
Swamy: Nothing is happening at the moment. You have to deal with China. They will not give you anything free. I have confidence in Narendra Modi. He is a clear person and he’ll take it forward.
Q: Let’s come to the Budget that Mr. Jaitley will be presenting shortly. You had proposed to abolish income-tax. Have you discussed it with Arun Jaitley.
Swamy: No. There was a meeting of the party before this govt was formed where Jaitley was also present. I had made this proposal then and Jaitley had not opposed it. I assume he’ll do it. I don’t need to speak to him again.
Q: What are your expectations from the budget? Will this budget take care of underprivileged section of the society or the nation should be ready for the bitter medicine as Mr Modi had pointed out?
Swamy: Actually, I have not taken any interest in that because I’m an economist. And If I take interest, they will say that Swamy aur Modi ka jhagda hai (Swamy and Modi are fighting). I don’t have to get into that. Let him present the budget and I’ll tell you after that.
Q: Do you believe that Indians should be ready for bitter medicine?
Swamy: That the PM had said, I didn’t say that. And I do not agree with the Prime Minister that bitter medicine has to be administered. Somebody has misled him because he is not an economist and he has to rely on some people. They might have misled him.
Q: Who are these people?
Swamy: I don’t know. He has not consulted me on the economic policy.
Q: That’s another point. Why is it that the PM is not taking services of an imminent person like Dr Swamy?
Swamy: This is something only he can answer. I can’t answer.
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Q: When you had merged your party with BJP, everybody thought that you will get important role in the govt if BJP forms the govt. But today you are not part of the govt. You are neither in parliament nor in party’s decision making body. Is there a section of the party that feels threatened by you?
Swamy: I don’t know. I joined BJP on the recommendation of Narendra Modi. This is something only Modi can answer. I also go every day to address the meetings of VHP and RSS. You must have noticed everybody was going to Gujarat Bhawan but I didn’t go there.
Q: Final question. How is it that You are so resourceful in terms of information that not many people are privy to. What is the secret? How do you manage all this?
Swamy: It’s built over many years. And I have some advantages. I was educated in Delhi. DPS - From Class 1 to 12. Then I did B.A. from Delhi. Then I was IIT professor also.
Second, my class mates ended up being secretaries. My father was a secretary. My father-in-law was an ICS man. So it’s a huge network. But most important of all, I never betrayed anybody for giving me information. I have tried to help people. So it’s the confidence in them that if Swamy seeks any information then he’ll not betray you, he’ll act on it. In this whole 2G case, Raja’s secretary came here and gave it to me.
Q: So all the corrupt people are now afraid of Dr Subramanian Swamy.
Swamy: Yeah, I know that. Not in other parties only but in my party as well.
Q: Don’t you think you would have been a better journalist with your vast network?
Swamy: You want me to leave politics? Then you must be a friend of Sonia Gandhi. If I had been a professor, I would have got Nobel prize in economics. I was the joint author of world’s most famous paper on the theory of index numbers with Paul Samuelson and he himself declared that Swamy will get Nobel prize if he writes two more such articles. But I gave it up, I came to this country, suffered for it because I joined Jansangh, big mistake as people thought. But I wanted to join because I wanted to bring about ‘Hindu Renaissance’.
In an exclusive interview to indiatvnews.com, Subramanian Swamy disagreed with Modi’s view that the nation needs to be administered ‘bitter medicine’.
Swamy alleged that somebody has misled Modi on this issue because he is not an economist and he has to rely on some people who might have misled him.
Swamy also differed with the government on railway passenger fare and freight hike. He said that Railways needs resources but it should not be done by raising passenger fares as there are other means available for the same.
Elated over a Delhi court issuing summons to Sonia and Rahul Gandhi in National Herald case, Subramanian Swamy rubbished Congress party’s claims that its intention was to help National Herald and its 700 odd employees as the party was emotionally attached to the newspaper for historical reasons.
When asked about his perceived strong views against Sonia Gandhi, Swamy said that he does not hate her but he has only contempt for her.
On Gopal Subramanian case, Swamy made it clear that his reason for opposing Gopal was different from what has been leaked (sic) to the newspapers.
According to Swamy, he opposed Gopal Subramanian’s appointment as Supreme Court judge, because of the affidavit that he filed as the Solicitor-General and defended it till Swamy forced him to withdraw it and that affidavit stated that Ram was a mythical character and that Ram-Sethu was not a man-made bridge but a natural formation.
Swamy also pointed out that both Dr Manmoahn Singh and Gopal Subramanian had personal character but both of them lacked what he called “national character”.
Swamy also said that India should send at least 200,000 troops to Afghanistan. He also advised India to get ready for war with the Islamic caliphate that will be set up very soon which will include Pakistan and Afghanistan.
On the possible solution of Kashmir issue, Swamy clearly said that there is no peaceful or democratic solution possible and there can only be a military solution to this dispute.
Here goes the full text of the interview:
Q: Dr. Swamy, let’s start with National Herald case. Finally, you have succeeded in getting summons issued against Sonia and Rahul Gandhi but the Congress party says that this case is purely politically motivated and an act of revengeful witch-hunt. They say it was their duty to help National Herald and its 700 odd employees. How would you react to that?
Swamy: First of all, the SC has a number of times said that when a complaint is made, the motive of the complainant can’t be gone into. Just the facts which are presented before the court must be gone into. Now it’s an insult of the court to say that I wanted to take revenge against Sonia Gandhi and therefore, I went to court and got the summons issued. Is it possible? It’s a contempt of court. It shows the low regard the Congress has for the court system in our country. This is a case which I had started when UPA was in power, one and a half years agao. During that period, it never occurred to them that they should do something. They never turned in court when I argued the whole matter on prime facie evidence. Now they have been found prime facie guilty of fraud, cheating and conspiracy and they have to answer that.
Q: Abhishek Manu Singhvi says he will legally demolish your case.
Swamy: (Laughs…) He is talking like all these children in schools. Ask him to come before India TV and have a debate with me. I’ll finish him.
Q: Just for the benefit of our audience, What are the main points of this National Herald case?
Swamy: The main point is this. You start from the last step. There was a company set up called “Young Indian Pvt Ltd Company”. They make a big thing that it’s a non-profit, section 25 company. So what? Who is the owner of the company. The owner of the company is the mother-son duo who own 76 percent stake. Each of them own 38 percent each. Tomorrow if the company is wound up, the assets of the company will be distributed in that proportion. Second, all the expenses of travel etc are done from company’s fund. Forget Rahul Gandhi’s idiotic answer that it’s a non-profit company. Tomorrow I can’t say that I have formed a non-profit company and am going to take over Humayun’s tomb which is nearby. How can you take it over?
So as I said, let’s go with the last step. A company which was set up only with Rs. 5 lakh and no assets whatsoever has come to acquire between 2000-5000 crore worth of property. In fact, their office was at 10, Janpath which is itself illegal. They have properties in Delhi at Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg, in Mumbai where they have built a multi-story luxury apartment, in Bhopal where they have built a mall, in Indore where they have made a huge mall-cum-residential complex and then in Lucknow, Patna and Chandigarh. Now how can a Rs. 5 Lakh company come to own 2000 crore worth of property?
Q: Do you find any merit in their argument that they extended loan because they find emotionally attached to National Herald?
Swamy: Alright, this argument was given when Congress gave Rs 90 crores to National Herald to wipe out the debt. But what does the press statement say? It says – in order for the National Herald to resume publication of National Herald. But happened in the end? That company has been digested by “Young Indian” which has in its memorandum of association clearly says publishing is not a part. One of our friends sent an email in this regard to Rahul Gandhi and he confirmed – No Publishing. So they have killed National Herald. This is a very strange way of showing love for National Herald by killing it.
Q: You have also pointed out that the business transaction that the Congress has entered into is illegal.
Swamy: That is a separate issue. That’s Income-tax issue. That is not in the court.
Q: If it’s illegal then why your own govt is not taking any action?
Swamy: After I wrote that letter, I’m told they are now taking action.
Q: Dr Swamy, people say that your hatred for Nehru-Gandhi family is well known. It goes back to the time when you had questioned Sonia Gandhi’s job as an insurance agent and Indira Gandhi was forced to intervene…
Swamy: And agree with me. I had not made any false charge.
Q: Yes. But what is the reason behind this hatred for Sonia Gandhi. Can you explain the background to your anti-Sonia Gandhi stand?
Swamy: You started by saying Nehru family. Actually, Rajiv Gandhi and I were such good friends that we had an alliance between Janata Party and Congress. I made Chandrashekhar Prime Minister. I defended Rajiv Gandhi on issues like Sri Lanka, IPKF and Maldives. I was almost like a brother to him. We used to sit together in parliament. So, it’s wrong to say that I have hatred for the family.
Q: I said the perception is there.
Swamy: Perception? It’s easy in our country. They don’t want you to go into the merits of the argument. They would just say that he has enmity with her.
As far as Sonia Gandhi is concerned, I have no hatred. I have contempt for her.
Q: But there was a time when you were also on good terms with Sonia Gandhi. You had that famous tea party with Sonia and Jayalalithaa that brought down the Vajpayee govt.
Swamy: Yes. We did business together to bring down the BJP led NDA government.
Q: So where does the relationship stand today?
Swamy: I have serious doubts about her involvement in Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination. I’m shocked that she wrote a letter to the President saying that the four people, whom the SC ordered to be hanged, should not be hanged. I’m shocked by the fact that she gave scholarship through IGNOU to Nalini. I’m shocked by the fact that she enabled her daughter, born after they were arrested, to go to London to study medicine and resettle her in Australia. I’m shocked that she sent Priyanka to speak to her. When I found that she had told Sheila Dikshit to give 1 plot of land near the airport for the LTTE to make a four-storey building, I got it demolished thanks to Mr. V K Kapoor who used to be L-G those days who took the courageous step by demolishing it.
Q: You are making very serious charges.
Swamy: So what do you want? You want me to make non-serious charges?
Q: No. But do you have any substantive proof?
Swamy: Oh really? Are you the Supreme Court? I produced proof on national Herald. You wait till I get a court order on other issues. You go by my record that I have never been wrong.
Q: How do you rate Rahul Gandhi’s leadership?
Swamy: Rahul Gandhi and leadership? They are contradictory terms.
Q: Still he led Congress in general elections?
Swamy: He was nominated. He is not a leader of the country. People have not accepted him. He is a ‘Buddhu’.
Q: There is a section in the Congress that is clamouring for Priyanka Gandhi. Do you believe Priyanka can change the fortunes of Congress party?
Swamy: Their family is over. There is no hope for Congress party with the family. The Congress will have to find somebody who can stand on his own party.
And who is Priyanka Gandhi, if I make ask you? You mean the wife of Vadra? Then call her Priyanka Vadra. It’s not there either in her certificate or passport.
Q: Narendra Modi, while campaigning in 2014 elections, made serious allegations against Robert Vadra. Now he is in power but we have not heard anything on that. Were those allegations mere part poll rhetoric?
Swamy: You ask Mr Narendra Modi. Don’t ask me. I didn’t make those charges. Whenever I make a charge, I go and file a court case. I am not a shoot and scoot man.
Now, Mr. Modi must have made some arrangements for that. I don’t know what those arrangements are.
Q: Can you explain in detail?
Swamy: I can’t say. He might have asked CBI that please look into it and prepare the files. I don’t know.
Q: There were charges against Robert Vadra in Rajasthan as well but Vasundhara govt has also not done anything.
Swamy: Now Vasundhara Raje govt has registered a case against Karti Chidambaram and Robert Vadra.
Q: Coming to the Gopal Subramanian case, I have two questions. One, do you believe that Gopal Subramanian is not suitable to be a judge of Supreme Court? Second, do you believe that the stand that the government has taken is in the interest of the judicial system in the country?
Swamy: If you ask me a question, should Mr. Gopal Subramanian be a judge of the Supreme Court, my answer is NO. Is my reason the same as the reason given in the leaks to the newspapers? The answer is NO. I have a different reason.
My reason is that he filed an affidavit as the Solicitor-General and defended it till I forced him to withdraw it and that was that Ram was a mythical character and that Ram-Setu was not a man-made bridge but a natural formation. On that ground itself I had told him at that stage, you are a morally unfit person.
Q: But his point is that because of the role he played in Sohrabuddin case that also involved Amit Shah, he is being targeted by the new govt.
Swamy: So does it mean that other candidates played sycophantic roles? Are they chamchas of the government?
I opposed his appointment on the ground that he filed an affidavit that hurt the sentiments of 80 percent of India i.e. Hindus. There were widespread protests and they were forced to withdraw it. And then he was removed from that case in Supreme Court. I don’t know anything about other reasons forwarded like 2G, Nira Radia etc.
Is he a competent person? YES. He is a very, very competent person. Is he a good man? YES. He is a good man. But he has a character flaw. I make a distinction between personal and national character. We need both.
Both Manmohan Singh and Gopal Subramanian had personal character but both of them lacked national character.
Q: Coming to the performance of Modi govt, Modi had promised a lot in his election campaign but there is a section of people which believes that the kind of decisions this govt has taken in the very first first month is contrary to the promises he had made. For example, the steep hike in Railway fares. Do you believe it was avoidable and do you forsee its repercussions in upcoming assembly elections?
Swamy: As far as Railways is concerned, I have made it clear to him and I have mentioned this in my tweets as well that yes, Railway requires lots of funds as it has been brought to a breaking point but there are other ways of collecting those funds, not by raising passenger fares.
Q: So you disagree with the government on this?
Swamy: I disagree with the govt in raising resources for the Railways through raising fares but I am in favour of govt finding other ways of raising resources for Railways.
Q: Have you communicated this to Mr. Modi? And has he given any positive response?
Swamy: Yes I have communicated this to him. He and I meet often. But I’ll not tell you what he told me.
Q: Do you think this decision will have any negative impact on upcoming elections in Maharashtra, Haryana, Jharkhand and possibly Delhi?
Swamy: No. We’ll win all of them. People are fed up of corruption. And after this National Herald case, people have got faith that corruption will be fought.
Q: Dr Swamy, let’s come to the concept of ‘Hindu Rashtra’. Can you explain what do you mean by ‘Hindu Rashtra’ and how will it be different from today’s Secular India?
Swamy: Let me start with this. This election was an amalgam of three issues.
One was Narendra Modi’s governance record. People were convinced that this man can rule the country. And it was a big plus for us because on the other side was the ‘buddhu’. There was no match.
Second was the fight against corruption which I led. People got convinced that yes these people can remove corruption. There was not a single corruption charge either against me or Modi. So the people were convinced and there was support for BJP as party of honest people.
Third, the cadre of the BJP which had gone to sleep after 2004, after 6 years of secularism of NDA, they suddenly got fired up that Modi means Hindutva with RSS Chief Mohan Bhagwat putting the entire weight behind him. So Hindutva was the third factor. And all three factors are important. You can’t just do governance and expect people to support you. There is large number of Hindus who believe that they have got a raw deal. And it also includes particularly educated young people.
Now coming back to your question of ‘Hindu Rashtra’, it does not mean that only a Hindu can be a prime Ministry. ‘Hindu Rashtra’ does not mean only Hindus can occupy public office. That is a ‘Muslim Rashtra’, ‘Christian Rashtra’ but never a ‘Hindu Rashtra’.
All through history, even Shiva ji, who spoke about Hindu Rashtra, had a Muslim as commander-in-Chief. In 1857, we made Bahadur Shah Zafar as emperor who appointed a Hindu his Prime Minister. If your secularism is that the church and the state are to be separate, and that is the original definition, then we have already done that throughout the history.
Second, the Hindu concept of secularism is ‘Sarva Dharma Sam-bhava’ and it means that all religions lead to God. So we show respect to all religions. The Jews came, we looked after them. The Parsis came, we looked after them. The Arab Muslims came and we looked after them in Kerala. But will the Muslims say that all religions lead to God? No, they’ll never say that. They’ll say if you don’t believe in Islam, you are Kaafirs. And you are fit for either conversion or killing. Christians will say that you are pagans if not Christians and that devil has got your souls. You are to be saved and in extreme form like crusade they will kill also. So the only religion in the world that has practiced Sarva Dharma Sam-bhava is Hinduism.
Q: My question is how would this Hindu Rashtra be different from the secular India that we have today?
Swamy: We’ll teach Sanskrit. We’ll teach them the correct history of India. We’ll say that all Hindus are one. That varna is not birth based. Its discipline and duty based.
Q: You had written an article in DNA for which Harvard had dropped your courses. In that article you wrote that those Muslims who don’t accept Hindu ancestry should be disenfranchised. Do you still stand by that?
Swamy: First of all, my courses had nothing to do with that. The courses related to Economics.
Yes, I stand by that statement because it’s drawn out of the partition of India. India was one country, there was no country called Pakistan. So the British had to create a legal entity called Pakistan. So they had introduced a bill in parliament that was called “Indian independence Act”. It was passed in June 1947 after a big debate.
In the debate, they said that there are Muslims who say that we have no connection with Hindus except for the fact that we ruled over them and we don’t want to live with them. The British said that we can’t abandon them and it’s our job to protect them. So we’ll partition India into two countries – India and Pakistan.
For Muslims who said that they have no connections with India and that they didn’t want to live with Hindus, partition was created. Therefore, Muslims who wanted to live separately went to Pakistan. But those Muslims who stayed on were people who accepted that they are willing to live with Hindus and they had connections with Hindus. And what is that connection? That is the ‘Scientific study on DNA’, published in the University of Cambridge, Journal of Genetics. There were studies in Houston, Mysore University as well. All these DNA studies show that the Hindu DNA and Muslim DNA is the same. So what does it mean and that’s what I had said. And if you don’t want to identify with Hindus, Pakistan is there for you.
Q: You are also supposed to be an authority on foreign relations, how do you look at what is happening in middle-east especially the way ISIS is marching ahead with vengeance? According to some media reports, the ISIS has the vision of an Islamic state that stretches up to Gujarat in India. How serious is that from Indian perspective.
Swamy: Serious enough for us to prepare for war. We’ll have a war.
Q: War with whom?
Swamy: War with the Islamic caliphate that will be set up very soon which will include Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Q: What should the Government of India do?
Swamy: Start preparing. Send troops to Afghanistan. Make friends with Iran because they are Shiites and those militants are all Sunnis.
Q: You want India to send troops to both Afghanistan and Iraq?
Swamy: Yes, to Iraq to save our people and I’m happy that India has send its warship there. India should send at least 200,000 troops to Afghanistan.
Q: There is a fear that once these Americans leave, these Talibans will get upper hand and they will turn their focus towards Kashmir.
Swamy: There is no fear, it’s a certainty. Americans will hand over Afghanistan to Taliban and go. And their appetite is Jehad and Kashmir is the obvious place. So we should be ready to go to war. You don’t start the war. They’ll start it and you finish it.
Q: A related question is, what, according to you, would be the solution for Kashmir dispute because it’s lingering for quite a long time.
Swamy: Military solution as there is no peaceful, democratic solution. We have to disown Jawaharlal Nehru and say that he took this matter to UN without the sanction of the cabinet and therefore, it’s an illegal application. Withdraw the application from the UN and put Pakistan on notice and clear out.
Q: Do you think India has the military might to defeat Pakistan?
Swamy: We can acquire the military might. We have the man power for that .
Q: Till the time we acquire that, what should we do?
Swamy: How much time do you want? Have you studied the problem? I have studied it. We need two years only.
Actually, we can defeat Pakistan even today. But we have to neutralize China.
Q: But Pakistan is a nuclear weapons state.
Swamy: So what? Let them use nuclear weapons. We’ll use it on them. There will be no Pakistan left. May be 100 million will die, no problem.
Q: That was the argument that George Fernandes had forwarded and he was criticized a lot.
Swamy: I care a damn for criticism. I’m telling you what I feel. You accept it or don’t accept it.
Q: So you believe India should go all out…
Swamy: No, you don’t start it. They’ll start it. You just finish it. Once they start it, go whole-hog. If you are afraid they are going to use nuclear bomb, you use it first.
Q: How do you rate the foreign policy of Modi government? He invited Nawaz Sharif for his swearing-in ceremony.
Swamy: I would still invite him because in Pakistan there are four governments. Nawaz Sharif’s is a civilian government. The civilians are dying for India’s help because they know they will have to go to burqas and beards once these Talibans take over with no permission for night clubs, partying, cinemas etc. They know it and that’s why are privately telling us – please shake hands with us. So civil society is differentThere are three other governments – ISI, military and mullahs.
Q: So you are in favour of engagement with the civilian government.
Swamy: Yes, but don’t take them seriously because they can’t deliver.
Q: You had played an important role in normalizing relationship with China especially your initiative on Kailas Mansarovar yatra, how do you look at Sino-Indian relationship. China is not willing to release its claim over Arunachal Pradesh.
Swamy: One day, China should announce that they recognize McMahon line.
Q: So what is happening on that front?
Swamy: Nothing is happening at the moment. You have to deal with China. They will not give you anything free. I have confidence in Narendra Modi. He is a clear person and he’ll take it forward.
Q: Let’s come to the Budget that Mr. Jaitley will be presenting shortly. You had proposed to abolish income-tax. Have you discussed it with Arun Jaitley.
Swamy: No. There was a meeting of the party before this govt was formed where Jaitley was also present. I had made this proposal then and Jaitley had not opposed it. I assume he’ll do it. I don’t need to speak to him again.
Q: What are your expectations from the budget? Will this budget take care of underprivileged section of the society or the nation should be ready for the bitter medicine as Mr Modi had pointed out?
Swamy: Actually, I have not taken any interest in that because I’m an economist. And If I take interest, they will say that Swamy aur Modi ka jhagda hai (Swamy and Modi are fighting). I don’t have to get into that. Let him present the budget and I’ll tell you after that.
Q: Do you believe that Indians should be ready for bitter medicine?
Swamy: That the PM had said, I didn’t say that. And I do not agree with the Prime Minister that bitter medicine has to be administered. Somebody has misled him because he is not an economist and he has to rely on some people. They might have misled him.
Q: Who are these people?
Swamy: I don’t know. He has not consulted me on the economic policy.
Q: That’s another point. Why is it that the PM is not taking services of an imminent person like Dr Swamy?
Swamy: This is something only he can answer. I can’t answer.
Q: When you had merged your party with BJP, everybody thought that you will get important role in the govt if BJP forms the govt. But today you are not part of the govt. You are neither in parliament nor in party’s decision making body. Is there a section of the party that feels threatened by you?
Swamy: I don’t know. I joined BJP on the recommendation of Narendra Modi. This is something only Modi can answer. I also go every day to address the meetings of VHP and RSS. You must have noticed everybody was going to Gujarat Bhawan but I didn’t go there.
Q: Final question. How is it that You are so resourceful in terms of information that not many people are privy to. What is the secret? How do you manage all this?
Swamy: It’s built over many years. And I have some advantages. I was educated in Delhi. DPS - From Class 1 to 12. Then I did B.A. from Delhi. Then I was IIT professor also.
Second, my class mates ended up being secretaries. My father was a secretary. My father-in-law was an ICS man. So it’s a huge network. But most important of all, I never betrayed anybody for giving me information. I have tried to help people. So it’s the confidence in them that if Swamy seeks any information then he’ll not betray you, he’ll act on it. In this whole 2G case, Raja’s secretary came here and gave it to me.
Q: So all the corrupt people are now afraid of Dr Subramanian Swamy.
Swamy: Yeah, I know that. Not in other parties only but in my party as well.
Q: Don’t you think you would have been a better journalist with your vast network?
Swamy: You want me to leave politics? Then you must be a friend of Sonia Gandhi. If I had been a professor, I would have got Nobel prize in economics. I was the joint author of world’s most famous paper on the theory of index numbers with Paul Samuelson and he himself declared that Swamy will get Nobel prize if he writes two more such articles. But I gave it up, I came to this country, suffered for it because I joined Jansangh, big mistake as people thought. But I wanted to join because I wanted to bring about ‘Hindu Renaissance’.